Are School Dress Codes Helpful or Harmful?

// Transcript //

Ep 03 Dress Codes

[00:00:00]

Mari: Yeah, I feel like I have a little

Rosie: frog in your

Mari: frog. Freaky frog

Rosie: but we like frogs, so that's cool.

Mari: It's true. I love frogs.

Taylor: What's the, the MILF sticker?

Mari: Milk I love frogs.

Welcome to the Moms for Social Justice podcast, where we talk about how you can make your community a more awesome place. In this episode, Mari leads us in a conversation about dress codes in schools. We discuss our own experiences with dress codes when we were kids and with our own children and how dress codes make kids feel ashamed or embarrassed of their own bodies, their culture or gender identity.

Or, how they can work to safeguard a positive learning environment and make students feel accepted. We hope you enjoy this episode!

Mari: Hello. M SS J. We're back [00:01:00] with the Moms for Social Justice podcast, you may notice something a little different. we look more professional, more put together?

Rosie: we sound

Mari: Oh, right. don't know. I think we look more professional.

I also didn't have to worry about what my hair looked like this episode, so I like that.

Taylor: Yeah, we got fancy new headphones and, and mics.

Mari: do match. We need it to match. We

Rosie: cute.

Mari: We're

Taylor: we just take a moment and appreciate how cute we are? Rosie, I love your shirt today.

Mari: I know. It's adorable.

Rosie: I got a, at the like thrift consignment store. I'm on the hunt for more Hawaiian shirts. The problem

usually they're for men, so they're huge. And I

Mari: Right.

Rosie: So, um, you know, if I did so I couldn't make cute ones myself.

Taylor: Yeah. If you're listening and not watching, Rosie has on a very colorful tropical shirt, which is, you know, not really fall themed, but we're hanging on to the last, [00:02:00] uh, bit of summer because it's still 85 degrees during the day, so that's okay.

Rosie: week.

Taylor: And Mari, what does your shirt say?

Mari: My shirt says public schools, and it is from an awesome local organization called Unify Ed that is working to make our public schools here in Chattanooga more equitable.

Rosie: I with that. I agree with Billy. We should not fund public schools and we should not accept billions of dollars from the federal government.

Mari: Well,

kicked outta the podcast, Rosie. It's been nice. Your shirt added a certain but Goodbye

Taylor: out

Mari: You the weakest link. That is, that is a throwback. Gen Z will be like, what are they, what are they talking about?

Taylor: That's okay.

Mari: We are the Chattanooga Moms for Social Justice, a progressive grassroots organization based here in Chattanooga, Tennessee. uh, our goal is to encourage parents to fight for social change right in their own backyard. And [00:03:00] we do that, I guess we could say every day. We, we try to do it every day and we've been at it for six years, which is really hard to, hard to believe. So we like to start out our podcast with a little check-in and, uh, finding out what is on our hearts. then we'll kind of dive into our topic, which today is dun dun, dun dress codes.

Taylor: We don't talk about dress codes. No. Uh, we are gonna talk about dress codes. Sorry.

Mari: code but a of don't wanna talk about it. Uh, yeah. So Rosie, what is on your heart?

Rosie: Um, okay. Very exciting. There's a lot of like, art challenges in October, and I have a lot of, I want to do them in theory, but I'm really busy, so I decided to do my own challenge, and if anybody else wants to join, let me know. Follow me on Instagram, Rosie Fitzgerald. Um, I'm doing a challenge called Rest Sober [00:04:00] where you write out your, like sleep routine, like your night routine for good sleep hygiene.

So like mine is, I take a bath, I, I, uh, turn off screens at 10 30. I've installed like an app blocker, so I can't access social media because I've found, like, I'll go to my phone and say, oh, wait, I can't do that. I journal and um, I have to be in bed by 11 and then hopefully asleep by 1130. Usually I read in bed. The idea is that hopefully I will fall asleep faster and get better quality sleep and just more sleep. Um, and then the other part is to choose something every day that is either energizing or that you restful. Whether maybe it's like a 20 minute like engaging in your favorite hobby or doing some meditation or movement. And being really intentional about it because I am not, and I wanna be better. So I'm hoping that if I build up this, these habits, that'll feel better and that I won't stay up until two in the morning. Watching [00:05:00] Love is Blind

Mari: Not ever done that. Did you invent rest? Tober

Rosie: I did,

Mari: Rosie.

Rosie: invention.

Mari: Rosie's rest Tober

Taylor: love that.

Rosie: Yes, and I, yeah, I know it's hard. I feel like, I don't know, October's hard. We're busy, but also like having a good sleep routine. Even if I don't, if I'm not in bed by 11, I can still go through like my routine. Like journaling has been important I think and helpful for quieting my brain down enough for me to be able fall asleep reasonably quickly.

Know, if you let me know if you guys join and what you

Taylor: I love that and wish you luck in that. And it's interesting because we, you know, we develop sleep routines for our kids, you know, to get them in a, in a restful place and ready for sleep. So I love the idea of building one of those for, you know, yourself as well. I'm gonna take some inspiration there, Rosie.

I will, I will join you in trying to create a sleep routine for rest Hoover. Thank you for that.

Rosie: Yes.

Mari: that we can check in on our next episode and see how we're all doing.

[00:06:00] Okay, Taylor, what about you? What's on heart?

Taylor: Oh, what, what's on my heart is I recently reread the Giver

Mari: Ooh.

Rosie: Oh

Taylor: because my fifth grade son wanted to read it. He has recently, gotten into dystopian fantasy. He read the Hunger Game series over the summer, and it's kind of his genre of choice right now, but I wanted to reread it and refresh, , my mind on the themes and, you know, different things that we could talk about and have you guys read that book?

Rosie: yeah. I mean, it's been, it's

um,

Mari: it has been a minute.

Rosie: it's very like, it's very beautifully written. It's kind of sparse in its description her word choice is so Precise. It does enough to paint a picture of the world without being overbearing or overly descriptive.

Taylor: And it's a very quick read too. Um, if you wanna jump back into it, it hits so hard [00:07:00] and it has stuck with me all week long and it has, uh, really made me appreciative of color. Because I don't know if you remember in that that landscape, the world is devoid of color. So I've really been able to take some intentional moments to appreciate that around us.

Really just in general, it, has given me this, this idea that, you know, if instead of shielding our kids and banning ideas and books, From them. If we instead took the time to read those books and use the hard concepts and the hard ideas to have really interesting and hard conversations with our kids we might be really amazed with some of the things that, that come out of them.

So I am really excited to have really interesting conversations with my son about this book. I'm really curious how it's going to hit him and if it's going to hit him as [00:08:00] deeply and as hard as it has Hit me reading it again as an adult.

Rosie: I love that. I love that

Mari: Wow.

Rosie: reading it together too. That's so special. oh, just an aside. When I was a kid, I, you know, those dumb things that you think of or that you think are true when, when you're a kid, because all the sh old shows were black and white. I thought the wor the entire world was in black and white. You know,

the 1950s

Taylor: Yep.

Mari: my kids think that too.

Taylor: So did mine. I, I'll never forget my middle son saying, when did the, when did the world become color?

Rosie: like, oh no, we just got, we just got But

Mari: we just better at capturing the world.

Rosie: Yeah. Process that.

Taylor: That's so precious.

Mari: That is precious. Oh yeah. I need to revisit that book. I'm pretty sure I read it in middle school and then think I did revisit it as an adult, but I think I was maybe in college or something. So I think it would hit even more differently now. And I know they made a movie, but wasn't very

Taylor: I haven't seen it.

Rosie: no, I haven't seen it either. Yeah. Revisiting books I think is super [00:09:00] valuable. Just like listening to music in different stages

like, you know, yeah. Stuff that you rocked out too as a teen you're like, oh, that wasn't actually applicable to my life at all, and but it felt very important in the moment.

Mari: Yeah, for sure.

Rosie: Mari, what's on your heart?

Mari: On my heart. Um, well, last night we hosted a virtual discussion called Running for School Board 1 0 1, and we invited some local who for a local office and won. And then we had the amazing Gloria Johnson

Taylor: Woo.

Mari: join us. man, she's just such an inspiration, but all of these women were so inspiring and it really, it gave me hope and it inspired me. Um, I've pretty much decided that running and being an elected official is not my calling, but I, there were so many people in the chat during the conversation that [00:10:00] sounded excited and felt, I think they felt that support that we wanted to show, that we would give, it really is scary. It's scary to say, I'm gonna run.

And especially if you don't have a huge social network here, um, or locally, can be scary to think, well, no one, no one's gonna care. No one's gonna support me. So showing that Moms for Social Justice will be there for you is, is huge. I think. And, and Rosie even volunteered, you know, to make a logo for,

design some things for folks for free and I think it will, I think it will inspire some folks to run and it, even if it doesn't, it's still hearing the stories of those women ran and their, you know, kind of why they decided to run and why they felt they needed to step up was really incredible. didn't know a lot of them.

Rosie: I agree. It was, it was awesome. And to your point, Mari, like, I don't think, you know, just like, uh, moving through a dungeon requires, uh, different classes. You can't all just be [00:11:00] warriors. We need MAs, rogues as well. So it takes to run a successful campaign.

Mari: Yes it does.

Taylor: Rosie, I, I'm just gonna put this out here from now on every podcast episode. If you do not reference like d d or something nerdy, I'm gonna be really disappointed.

Rosie: Um,

Taylor: What, what class are you?

Rosie: Oh, what cla? Um, I like, I usually like to play as like a, like a MJ Healy Healy type class. I do the support aspect as Yeah, I, I like it, but I, I honestly, I played all classes. Like, I like being upfront and being a tank. Probably being a tank, which is the person who takes all the damage.

getting really nerdy.

Taylor: I love it. I love it.

Rosie: person who like does the buffs and, um, the, you know,

and stuff. I, I like that too.

Taylor: Yeah. Last night was really, uh, really wonderful as well to just hear,[00:12:00] taking that leap from having, the thought in the back of your mind, maybe, maybe I can do this. Maybe my voice, uh, is important. Maybe I can do something for my community.

It's one thing to have that thought, it's another, to take that leap and actually run for office and, and see these women who did that, who made that leap was just really, really inspiring, especially to hear how all of their win margins were so narrow.

Rosie: They were so Yes. Yeah. And

I re you know, canvassing, A lot of times when I knock on people's doors, I'll hear that people say that, you know, they don't vote or they're not registered because they really feel disheartened and feel like their vote doesn't matter. And that that's the complete opposite of the, the case. It really does matter, I think, in our in our area, or. know, sometimes looking at national politics too, it can feel very disempowering,

that's the magic of like local

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: and local is that that's where [00:13:00] you can a big impact and wield a lot of power and yeah,

influence and that those local elections will have a big influence on your own day-to-day life as well.

So they're really important.

Mari:

Well, thank you all for sharing. I think, I think it's nice to start that way. And, uh, our topic is one that's I'm not passionate about it all. Just kidding. Uh, dress codes in schools particularly. I wanna start with hearing from both of you and maybe kind of giving a little bit of my background. Like when you were in school, was there a dress code? Did it affect you at all? You know, what do you remember thinking about it? Were, did it just kind of not bother you? Were you angry? and then because we're all mothers, how has the dress codes in your kids' schools affected? You now and your kids.

Rosie: As, as you all know, I went to a Catholic school for about years, [00:14:00] we wore uniforms as you do in most, I think all Catholic schools. and my parents didn't have a lot of extra money, like a lot their money was going to paying for our school tuition. You know, we lived in a very small house.

So I, I like distinctly remember going to the like secondhand, uh, uniform sales that they would in the school gymnasium before the start of the year and, and like making sure that we go to that. and I just basically lived in my couple of uniform pieces. I didn't really have any, like, I had a few clothes from Kmart and stuff, but it was mostly uniform 'cause like where my parents' money went. Um, and so then I remember when I went to Uh, public, junior high in eighth grade, that was like a selling feature, of like, to public school and we can go to the mall and get clothes. And I was like, oh,

Taylor: Woo hoo.

Rosie: American Eagle? I don't know. Um, so when I was in, in high school and stuff, I didn't really, um, [00:15:00] I didn't run into any problems or anything. Um, but I do remember, you know, going back to, to Catholic school and wearing the uniform, I, it's a, it's really a difficult thing, but I do think it was beneficial in, in the way that, you know, my family didn't have a, a lot of extra resources. And there were kids in my school that that did, but when we were at school, except for, um, wintertime because I really wanted a starter jacket and my not

Taylor: I remember starter jackets,

Rosie: They a dollars and my parents were like, no, we're not spending a hundred dollars. But you know, the cool kids had it anyway. Um, yeah. And I remember over to kids' houses to play and like, wow, your house is like big and stuff, and didn't feel that disparity as much at school, which is a positive thing. Um, but I'm sure you know, the financial burden of just the cost of tuition and getting uniforms and stuff was a challenge for my parents.

Mari: And how about now, uh, with your two kiddos in public school, have [00:16:00] you been affected by it at all? Have they said anything?

Rosie: No, we haven't run into any issues yet, thankfully. Um, my kids still young and I feel like that's less of an issue when kids are young and becomes more of an issue once kids are interested in expressing themselves. I mean, the biggest thing is,

my daughter has is neurodivergent. And so she has some sensory issues.

And so I've been like pulled aside, if you will, you know, by the teacher saying, saying like, well, she won't wear her jacket, or, and I'm like, you know, I can't force her to wear, I can ask her to wear a jacket, but it's very uncomfortable for her. So not enforced necessarily.

Mari: How about you Taylor? Uh, what your experience growing up?

Taylor: Rosie, you know, you talking about it really putting a spotlight on, you know, the economic hierarchy. I, I remember that really distinctly as a child off brand Walmart clothes and, you know, they would try to make a, [00:17:00] they would make a brand name that sounded close to the, to the name brands like

I'm gonna age myself here. My brothers had to wear Brule boy pants as opposed to bugle boy. so, you know, I remember feeling just personal, em embarrassment and feelings of, being otherness, I guess. Not having the name brand clothing that some of my, my peers had. I rem as we got older, you know, the, the length of the shorts became I guess that was the most important thing going on in our assistant principal's day, because he would

Rosie: it's

the fingertips.

Taylor: Yes, the fingertips and he would line us up publicly, which I, so I remember like, shame was a big part of the dress, enforcing the dress code that you would be, you know, publicly called out if your shorts were too short and sent home.

Mari: it was a man that did this.

Taylor: Oh yeah, prince, principal hanky. I mean, this was back when they would still.

Mari: His name was Hanky.

Taylor: Oh, it was, yeah,

Rosie: Not to name names, but [00:18:00] to this horrific principle.

Taylor: I, I, I'm sure, um, God rest his soul, Mr. Hankey's no longer with us,

Rosie: probably a

Taylor: but, um, that I also don't feel a whole lot of personal, Mr. Hanky paddled me in his office, so, uh, there's no love loss there. Well, I had a choice, so I was late a lot. This is not related to dress codes. I was late a lot. Shocking, shocking no one.

And so I had a choice between detention at 6:30 AM or being paddled, and I chose being paddled. So I guess you could say that, you know, it's my own fault, but.

Mari: if you had chosen 6:30 AM detention, you might've been late.

Rosie: late for

Taylor: Most definitely, I would not have made 6:30 AM detention. But, but I guess getting back on topic, for me personally, I think one of the most difficult things for me is I was large chested as a teenager[00:19:00]

and there was strict rules about your bra strap being visible,

 it's, it wasn't, it was also not an option for you not to wear a bra,

Which I think is becoming, um, a point of contention with

With kids now, whether or not they, they feel like they're compelled to wear undergarments. So like there's just this weird double standard. Like you can't, you have to wear the undergarment, but you can't see the undergarment. And for, for a large chested teenagers, that I think is a, a struggle and also a source of embarrassment.

And it was for me.

Mari: Yep, a hundred percent. Um, and since you, have two boys in, public school right now, I know you have a daughter, she's not quite there yet. Have you experienced anything now with, with dress code or, you know, I know length of shorts may not matter so much, but I know that, uh, one of your sons. You know, likes to, [00:20:00] express himself a little differently than what is the quote unquote And I know you've experienced some issues with that.

Taylor: I wouldn't have thought that dress code issues would be a thing for us to deal with, and certainly in elementary school, but I've been sort of surprised that, we've had to deal with some, some of those questions. My older son, yeah, he presents a little bit differently. He likes to wear bright colors, pink and, and he likes to wear sparkly jewelry sometimes.

And recently he has, uh, begun to paint his nails. He likes to paint his nails and he wants to get his ears pierced for his birthday. As we've been kind of talking with the. of the school officials about some of the challenges he's run into with peers because he presents a little bit differently.

It has been suggested that may need special permission to wear earrings to school, which is a really, really interesting thing to me, why we would have a double standard [00:21:00] for, for boys who present a little bit differently. And it just made me think that elementary schools I think are gonna have to spend a little more time figuring out how they're going to support and make our kids who, who are a little different, feel included and feel like they belong.

Because that's the motto of, of our schools, right? That everyone belongs. Well then we need to create environments where everyone feels like they belong.

Mari: exactly.

Rosie: for sure. You know, if a, if girls can wear dresses to school, boys should be able to wear dresses to school.

shouldn't be an issue. And

Mari: A hundred percent. Yeah. And

your nails and you know,

Taylor: long hair

Mari: like we know we can't keep other kids from making fun of someone saying an offhand comment, but it's the culture of the school and how teachers treat students that maybe present a little differently or, [00:22:00] um, know break the dress code rules. think that really sets the tone. For how students feel if shame is a big part of it or not. so for me, , I went to school in East Tennessee, that's where I grew up, and we had a very similar dress code to what my kids have now and here in, in Chattanooga. And was a constant source of anxiety for me. I don't, I don't remember them lining us up, but I, I know for sure that, you know, when we would walk into a classroom, instead of the teacher being concerned with, you know, maybe like Are there clothes clean? Like do we need to potentially step in and, and help this kiddo out, , if they don't have a good home situation, something like that, thinking, you know, hmm, those shorts look a little too short. So I now, as an adult, I feel for the teachers having to, in my opinion, waste time dealing with that. But yeah, I [00:23:00] also had, a larger chest still do, and dealing with that was, was really difficult. And, in in the nineties and early two thousands, oversized t-shirts were not in, so everything was, tight.

Taylor: Mm-hmm.

Mari: , if I wanted to wear a V-neck, showed cleavage no matter what. Like, I, I, you know, and then we would layer with the tank top underneath with the little lace, and it still would,

Rosie: layers.

Mari: yeah. And I remember boys, uh, Wadding up little pieces of paper

Taylor: stop.

Mari: throwing them

Taylor: Oh my God.

Mari: And the teacher, teacher is a, I don't know that I would call him a teacher.

He was a coach He saw it laughed and did nothing.

Taylor: Oh.

Mari: I remember going home and crying and like trying to figure out a way to like, make my shirts go up higher and being like, I guess I can't even wear this stuff that's in, I need to wear like in the summer. And again, [00:24:00] that was something that the students did, but it was by teacher by not doing anything and kind of just thinking it was funny. Um, so that made me very upset. And then now ,some of those feelings have been coming up lately with my, my children. Um, my daughter is about to go into middle school. So, yeah, they didn't really enforce the dress code as much before this year, but they have started to, and my daughter is definitely like me and that she a rule follower and wants to do the right thing and doesn't wanna get in trouble. it's been really wracking for her. She's also tall, which I did not deal with.

And so know, that they sell in the stores,

So she's wearing Bermuda shorts, which like,

Taylor: those aren't, those aren't cute

Mari: like, they're fine, but if she, like, she can't just wear the comfy, [00:25:00] like moisture wicking, you know, athletic shorts because they're too short. As we mentioned in the beginning, it's 85 degrees or hotter here, even in. We're about to be in October it's been very frustrating. felt shame about it. She has noticed that geared toward, the, the girls,

Rosie: mm-hmm.

Mari: in her school and saying how unfair it was. And she actually wanted to do her speech last year on it.

They could do, uh, soapbox speeches where they could talk about something they were passionate about. she asked if she could do it about the dress code the teacher said for or against, and she said against. And the teacher said, no, you can't do that.

Taylor: What

Mari: I know. after seeing some of those speeches, they were on gun violence. And I mean, they were, it wasn't just like, you know, homework and no homework, you know, it was, they were serious topics and that was very interesting. So, .

Taylor: Well, you know, I think it, it really begs the [00:26:00] question like, what are we telling our young girls

We talk about shorts that are too short, that there's something about their legs that are obscene,

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: or, and like the way that clothes are designed for girls. Like the shorts are short.

You can't find, um, you can't find longer length shorts, or they're really difficult to find, or you have to find Bermuda shorts. There's, um, a super famous, she's like the best, um, ultra, you know, female ultra runner in the world.

The best, one of the best ultra runners in the world. Courtney Dewal. And when she runs, she wears like basketball shorts basically, and like bigger, bigger shirt shirts. And, um, that's just what she feels comfortable in. And, and she actually, um, one of the sports company, Solomon, like, she designed shorts that are more in line with like the length and stuff that she likes that you can go buy now. But that is so [00:27:00] rare. Um, and I, and I noticed that when I was buying shorts for my, my, daughter, I think Target hat has some options for slightly longer,

they called them MIDI shorts maybe. Um, but it's, it's very limited. Um,

if you wanna, you know, as your kids get older and they wanna be on trend, just like how you were struggling Mari with trying to in and match the current styles.

Mari: and not get things thrown down my Cleavage

Taylor: Ugh.

Rosie: Yes. Getting your bo like you have to have like the right body type or you might get in trouble for not adhering to the dress code and it's so restrictive and limiting over something that you have little to no control over.

Mari: Right. And it feels so unnecessary to me. our school recently had a, a committee to talk about the dress code, and I was excited to be a part of it because I thought, Ooh, we're gonna be making some big changes. And really it was more they wanted, [00:28:00] um, it wasn't being enforced the board consistently.

 Which I, I understand is an issue. And I'm sure, you know, as our community mentioned, we, we posed a question in our community group about dress codes and how people felt about them. And we know that, People with larger bodies tend to, uh, you know, get called out more on dress code. And it's just like we were saying, like whether you're tall short or you have a larger body or a larger chest, all factors into how clothes fit on you. Especially when we, you know, it's not fair. We know that a lot of plus size clothing costs more. It's harder to find. It's not on trend a lot of the time. So there's so many barriers. But it was very interesting hearing other parents talk about it. And the, the one that struck me the most was the idea of, of leggings and that kids can't, girls, let's be honest, they can't use gendered language in the actual dress [00:29:00] code.

I believe that's, that's illegal, but

Taylor: But we know who they're targeting.

Mari: know they're targeting. Uh, so yeah, you, you have to wear a shirt that covers your backside and your front completely. if you wear leggings, which I'm like, I'm not sure if you've been into a store, but that's what everyone's wearing.

Taylor: Yep.

Rosie: yes. Well, and I remember when leggings first became a thing, people were complaining about it for that very reason. Like, oh, they're just wearing, you know, tights

Mari: tights. Okay. What's wrong with wearing tights?

Rosie: like, I think, you know, I, what was it next in fa in fashion? Um, tan was talk, talking about like, yeah, underline underwear lines, they're fine.

Mari: right? Because

all it is is it means you're wearing underwear,

Taylor: Uh,

Rosie: thank goodness,

Taylor: oh my gosh. The fights I have with my boys to wear underwear, y'all,

Mari: wow.

Rosie: I have, I have those same fights too as my daughter,

Mari: Oh, Interesting. That's one I haven't had to deal with,

count myself. Lucky.

Taylor: But yeah, [00:30:00] what's, uh, what's gonna happen if the kid in front of you or behind you sees your underwear line? I'm like, what are we telling our, and that's, I think what drives me the most bananas about it, is that we are enforcing from a very young age that our boys have no self-control.

Our girls are responsible for boys' thoughts and boys' feelings. They have to, you know, police their bodies to, to protect themselves from the thoughts and feelings of their peers. To me that we are teaching that from such a young age, how do we expect them to unlearn that when they are in, um, you know, older age brackets where, we can't tell our, our young women, how you dress, it doesn't matter how you dress.

You're not asking for sexual assault. If we, if we taught them that from a very young age,

Mari: Yep.

Rosie: be Beyonce [00:31:00] helped me unlearn that. No, 'cause I, that that was enforced for, for me. Also, obviously, like in a Catholic school, you know, you need to cover, cover up

Taylor: those knees,

Rosie: Yes. And um, and so I struggled for a long time with slut shaming

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: I would judge other women or girls for , showing too

body. It was Beyonce's 2013 Visual Album she was talking about how, women should feel empowered to show, um, their bodies. And, and she, especially as a newer mother, had worked very hard to, get her body to look the way that she wanted. Wanted it to look and she wanted to show it off.

Taylor: Rosie, do you feel that that changes the way that you talk about other women in front of your daughter and your son?

Rosie: have wrestled with the question of, well, what do I do when, my son?

Or, presumably my daughter [00:32:00] maybe wants to dress more provocatively I honestly don't know exactly what I'm going to do yet because I do think, you know, for learning environments, for professional environments, I think some sort of dress code is Im important, um, far as putting everybody on a, on a like level playing field.

Taylor: I think it's a very nuanced topic, and I, that was one of the things that I found really interesting from our, um, community. You know, comment thread is, you know, we had parents weighing in, teachers weighing in, you know, with, with varied ideas on this topic. And to your point, Rosie. A few of the parents and teachers said that uniforms were really helpful in school for that reason, that it just sort of created a, a level playing field for everyone.

But then you have to talk about, and Rosie you talked about this in, in your childhood, that presents an economic barrier.

Mari: Right. Well, and I think that's like, [00:33:00] that's my biggest issue with dress codes is that they don't always give a purpose. And so it does, like, it leaves people to wonder, you know, um, is it because my body is shameful? Do you know do we have dress codes? , before that committee meeting that I attended over the summer at our school, I wanted to find out, what. Was the first dress code, what did, what was the reason? Um, I, I found it really interesting, uh, that it had to do with censorship, which is such interesting topic

Rosie: wow.

Mari: nowadays.

Taylor: Imagine that.

Mari: Right? So the first school dress code law was in 1969 by the US Supreme Court. And the case was Tinker v Des Moines Independent School District. And let's see, it says it involved several high school students who wore black armbands to school in a planned protest against the Vietnam War.

Taylor: No shit. That is awesome.

Mari: So, um, you know, they just. [00:34:00] They say it's a far reaching decision, you know, which I assume means people had things to say about it. but they decided schools can limit student expression if there's a legitimate concern that the expression will be disruptive to the learning environment or violate the rights of others, which I can understand the latter part, but the other part feels very subjective. And,

Taylor: Oh, absolutely.

Mari: is why, I did a little research and found a really neat dress code that I, that I thought was a fantastic blueprint, and it starts out with the dress code philosophy. It says this, this, uh, Evanston Township High School student dress code supports equitable education, educational access, and is written in a manner that does not reinforce stereotypes to ensure effective and equitable enforcement.

School staff shall enforce the dress code consistently and in a manner that does not reinforce or increase marginalization or oppression of any [00:35:00] group based on race, sex, gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, cultural observance, household income or body type and size, which I feel is really cool.

And of course, I sent that to our school and was met with crickets, and I that not gonna, you know, feel super comfortable with that kind of language. Uh, but, but

Rosie: understand why though,

Mari: yeah, I don't either.

Rosie: to me. I mean, I know again, in our community thread, people were talking about instances of, uh, black girls and black women's hair being,

it can only be a certain way. And I'm like, well, if you have braids, how is that disruptive to the, to the learning environment?

understand allowing maybe, uh, t-shirts or sweatshirts with certain logos or

Mari: Profanity or

Rosie: yeah, or, or, you know, uh, gangs will, affiliate with

sports team. [00:36:00] Um, but then that's like very school specific, obviously.

Mari: right,

Rosie: It's, if it's not hindering the learning environment, then why is it, uh, against. The, the dress code,

Or, you know, even things like, like do rags are frequently banned. Which that is just protecting somebody's hair. it's a lot of effort to,

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: to put into doing hair and if you don't feel like doing it because you wanna get to school on time or whatever, like that should be allowed.

It's not distracting.

Taylor: Yeah, that just feels so racially coated. You know,

Rosie: 100%.

Mari: Looked at a few statistics before this episode and, you know, 93% of schools have some sort of dress code policies and 44% enforce a strict dress code. And I mean, that's, that's a lot, you know, so I feel like it, it behooves us to interrogate these and not do the whole, it's always been done this way.

Taylor: Right. Yep.

Mari: [00:37:00] keep doing it even though it's, you know, reinforcing stereotypes and, you know, making it harder for, you know, black and brown students, especially, female presenting students to learn. And it's interesting because I feel like the purpose is so that kids can be in a better learning environment and less distracted. And I feel like it's ending up potentially. Doing the opposite,

correct.

Rosie: too restrictive. Yeah. . Your shorts are too. Shorts are

Taylor: Yeah, if you're singling children out, oh, the paddling

Rosie: That's gone now. Right? Didn't we get rid of like just a couple of years ago?

Mari: Right. Yeah. Well one of the really interesting was saying if a school system has a uniform dress code and students have a difficult time complying, the system is mandated to find clothing for the student,

Rosie: Oh, okay.

Taylor: Interesting.

Mari: which I am sure most people don't And [00:38:00] I wonder if that could be an issue with maybe why schools don't. Some schools don't have uniforms. It's just so interesting 'cause I feel like the counter is like, you want our kids to feel like they have the freedom to express themselves. It's like, but then we're also gonna say you can't express yourself in these 10 ways.

that. I just, I almost feel like the, you know, the solution might be some type of uniform. Something like khakis and a solid colored shirt or, or something, because I don't think we're gonna change the opinions of staff and administrators that come up with these in the next, you know, however many years to realize that, do wanna wear dresses or have earrings or,, an underwear line showing is not going to prevent anyone's learning. Progress is much slower than we want it to be.

Taylor: Yeah.

Mari: I want, you know, I wonder if uniforms could be the answer, [00:39:00] if maybe that's just like a line item on, on the budget that, we're gonna take away all of this time worrying about enforcing a dress code and disciplining and calling parents and sending notes home. And we're gonna focus on learning you know, we're gonna have, we're gonna have uniforms that we can, we can potentially provide.

Rosie: And to, and to that point, you know, under federal law, it you cannot discriminate restrict a student wearing something that aligns with the gender that they want to present as, or their race, religion, or like other characteristics. Now, just because this is illegal doesn't mean that the

Mari: Right

Taylor: It doesn't happen right.

Mari: Wait, what? I didn't know that.

Rosie: , I, , pulled up some like stories. There was a, uh, North Carolina principal who suspended a high school, student, a girl. And attended her from attending because she wore a slightly off shoulder [00:40:00] top to school.

Mari: Not the shoulder. The dreaded shoulder

Rosie: dare we, what's,

ankle.

Mari: No

Taylor: Stop.

Rosie: There was another,

Taylor: That's outrageous.

Rosie: Texas who drew on a black boy's head in permanent marker cover up a shave design in his hair, which is

Taylor: Oh hell no.

Rosie: I mean, like, it

somehow, I don't know, let's, let's say worst case scenario, the shave de design is like the word fuck or something like that. Well, like we can cover it up like with a hat

Mari: Which is probably against the dress code

Rosie: or, yeah. Or like say, Hey, you know, you need to pick up your son and he needs to

Mari: Yeah, that sounds like, yeah, that sounds like that. that. principle has some issues with

Rosie: Oh, shaved to signs.

Taylor: No doubt. No doubt.

Rosie: Um, and, and also in Texas, a transgender, uh, girl was told [00:41:00] not to return to school until she followed the school's dress code guidelines for boys. So all of

illegal.

You

Mari: mm-hmm.

right.

Rosie: Um, but that doesn't mean that school districts and principals and teachers

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: won't try, um, and, and in their own beliefs

students.

Taylor: 100%. And you know, and it's worth it to have these conversations and to, to look at these dress codes because we have this, you know, entire generation of parents where a lot of us are teaching our kids that things like clothing do not have gender assignments. Like clothes don't have genders. The, the idea that we will have kids of, of all types wanting to wear all different types of things, they're, they're gonna have to really take a hard look at these dress codes and how they're enforced and how, um, you know, going back to the beginning of, of our conversation, if they're creating an environment where all kids feel a sense of belonging and feel included, no, no matter how they [00:42:00] present themselves.

Rosie: Yeah. To your point, Taylor, if, the, the teachers are what the students are making fun of pointing out as being weird or different or wrong,

all the, all the other students are gonna feel that way.

Mari: It's a tricky topic. And I think that's kind of what wanna do on this podcast. We wanna talk about some of these things that we experience and that Most folks are experiencing. And maybe look at some of the, you know, look at what our community is saying and, and talk about it amongst the three of us. 'cause we feel like nuance is really missing in a lot of our public discourse today. I think, uh, the internet has helped with that. And, you know, uh, character limits on tweets.

Rosie: Moms for social justice believes kids should go to school naked.

Mari: I mean, no,

Taylor: No.

Mari: You're just asking to be with a stung by a bee on the [00:43:00] playground. Um,

Taylor: Oh

Lord.

Rosie: No, but I think your point,

saying that we understand that that dress codes are beneficial, but I think it's important for school districts, and other, you know, individual

recognize the, difficulties or limitations of their own, like student population, financially,

socially, cult culturally, and write codes that are inclusive and

make kids feel othered.

Taylor: What we're asking for is culturally responsive dress codes.

Rosie: Yes.

Mari: Yes,

Taylor: Is that too much to ask?

Rosie: apparently

Mari: it

Rosie: Apparently it's too much.

Mari: This has been a really interesting conversation. I'm glad we, I would love to hear what other folks who are listening think and what their experiences have been and if, you know, if they have children in their lives, what their experiences has have

And I, you know, I do hope that we see a shift the only way to see a shift is to be that shift [00:44:00] and, you know, be the change you wish to see in your dress code.

Rosie: run school board.

Mari: I mean, it is kind of a full circle moment. If you have questions about this, your, you know, the dress code in your kid's school, maybe, you know, talk to the administrators and if we can get folks to start interrogating some of this. Um, and, and I, like I said before, I really think the important thing is why, why are we doing this? If there are good reasons and it keeps people safe, great. Love that. If it's just because it's always been there, Hmm, let's, let's look at that a little

Taylor: Yeah, if it's, if it's reinforcing, um, shame and, and laying the foundations for rape culture, then maybe we should reexamine it.

Mari: we shouldn't be doing that. So thank you all for joining us with this, uh, nuanced conversation about dress code and all kinds of misinformation out there. we hope you'll join us for another [00:45:00] episode. And, uh, we just wanna remind everyone that. Moms get shit done.

Taylor: Oh, we do

Mari: that's our tagline.

Rosie: We're not gonna say it together though. That's weird.

Mari: Nope. 'cause we tried it and it was very awkward. So we'll see you soon.

We hope this episode encourages you to examine dress codes in your own school district and see if they're actually serving students or not. And if they're not, maybe you can do something about that. Um, Moms4SocialJustice is a 501c4. If you would like to support our work, you can find a donation link on our website, Moms4SocialJustice.

us. And you can find us on all the places, Instagram, Facebook, all that. Thanks for listening. We'll see

you next time. Bye.