When a Loved One Takes Their Life

Transcript:

Ep 4 // When a Loved One Takes Their Life

[00:00:00] This is the Moms for Social Justice podcast, where we talk about how you can make your community a more awesome place. In this episode, Taylor and I discuss a very heavy but important topic, depression and suicide. We both have our own experiences with this, and we wanted to bring this into the light in hopes that it will encourage discourse and help others feel more comfortable addressing these issues with their own loved ones.

Before we start the episode, I just need to remind everyone that neither Taylor nor I are mental health or medical professionals. If you or a loved one is dealing with depression or suicidal ideation, please seek professional help. We want you here. We'll provide some resources in the notes along with the episode.

Um, I just want to thank Taylor for sharing her experience and our awesome MSJ community for sharing all of theirs. Let's start the episode.[00:01:00]

Rosie: welcome to the Moms for Social Justice Podcast. Um, today, uh, Taylor and I, it's just the two of us. We're gonna be having an intimate conversation about depression and suicide. So big trigger warning, um, at the top of this episode.

And if you feel like it's not right for you to listen right now, that's okay. Um, we are here for you and we love you. We are Moms for Social Justice. We're a progressive grassroots organization located in Chattanooga, and we work to help and empower parents to fight for social change in their own backyard.

Taylor, do you wanna talk about what's on your heart and mind right now before we get into this deep topic? It's like, it's so heavy,

Taylor: and yeah, you know, I wish what was on my heart and mind [00:02:00] was a little bit lighter given the topic that we're about to delve into. But I'm just, I'm going to be transparent about what, what is really at the forefront of my heart and mind. And that's just, you know, the state of the world.

Rosie: Hmm.

Taylor: you know, it's hard to go about our daily tasks knowing that, you know, on the other side of, of the world, , there is just this, this humanitarian crisis.

And Again, this is one of those topics that it's hard to talk about and it's, you know, it's tricky and nuanced and we, sometimes avoid those conversations because we don't quite know exactly what to say or even understand the complexity of, of the history and what's happening. And it's not important to know or be an expert in matters of foreign policy.

You can still care about the suffering of, of innocent

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: On either [00:03:00] side of, of, you know, respective, uh, borders. And that really is what's on my heart right now when I tuck my, you know, kids in at night is I'm so grateful that they are healthy and they are safe and my heart just is broken for the moms, uh, around. The world who do not have that safety when they are putting their kids to bed at night.

Rosie: The Daily, the New York Times podcast, uh, released, voices from Gaza episode and you could hear missiles blasting in the background of these conversations. And people are just huddling and trying to survive and, it feels, I don't know, you don't wanna be a keyboard warrior. There's like not much else that you can, that you can do other than, staying vigilant.

 I think it's important to be a witness [00:04:00] to historic moments like this so that you can recognize when people are being denied peace and happiness in your own area and what you can do to remove obstacles for people.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, that's the sad thing about war is it's often, you know, the innocent, um, often women and children who bear the brunt of it, uh, and, and have no responsibility in the conflict at all. , for those of us here, Rosie, you know, what you were, what you were saying, it's hard to know what to do.

You know, we could spend our time on social media, you know, debating the ins and outs of all of these things. And that, is defeating and in some ways, um, really debilitating to our mental health. And I saw something yesterday that really spoke to me that if you, um, find yourself feeling Just really helpless and overwhelmed by the state of the world. You're not, you're not [00:05:00] alone. There's a, there's a term for that. It's called empathy distress.

Rosie: Okay.

Taylor: Yeah. It's something, you know, that's very real for those of us who have, , empathetic hearts. And I think that often, we as mothers identify with, with having a lot of empathy for, you know, the people around us. it's important to recognize when you're feeling that way, when you're feeling hopeless and, and overwhelmed about things happening that are outside of your realm of control. To take a step back, pull those in your inner circle, close, um, and take care of your heart and your mind, because you are not going to be, uh, any help to anyone if your mental and emotional health isn't a serious state of decline.

Rosie: It feels like we, you know, it, it's a, it's a difficult space for us to try to, to navigate or like to have a say, but as mothers we can say that like, this is not okay on, on either side for innocent people to be, be [00:06:00] losing their lives.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's really heavy. But yeah, I think that's, that's a great point. Uh, uh, you said it was empathy distress.

Taylor: Yeah.

Empathy, distress.

Rosie: hadn't, heard of that before, but, um, yeah, that's,

Taylor: it was empathetic distress.

Rosie: Empathetic

Taylor: to look

Rosie: distress. Yeah. . No, that's, that's good. Good to know and good to know, like your own limits and when you need to step, step back from that.

Taylor: And what

about you, Rosie? What's on your heart right now?

Rosie: okay. So it's like totally the opposite direction, but somewhat, maybe, somewhat related. I'm going camping this weekend. My, uh, daughter is a cub scout and so it's their like. Cub Scout camp out weekend. Um, our Cub Scout area council, they own a property, , about two hours away. So that's where this is taking place.

And I did it last year. It was my first time ever camping and I brought both kids with me because I was like , I'll give my husband a weekend away, um, by himself and [00:07:00] I'll take the kids camping and we'll have a great time. I did not know, I did not know . There's so

Taylor: know what you don't know. Rosie

Rosie: what, I dunno.

It's so many people. There's, it's like, it's not just a, our little pack, it's like all of the packs that are part of the area. So it's a ton of people. And they have like different campsites on the property. So like, your pack is assigned a campsite. So like we get signed in my son is screaming his head off.

I'm trying to like, set up the, the, the tent. It's night. I, like, I have my headlamp on, you know, like I stick him by the fire with some strangers and I'm like, hang on, can you hang out with my son while I get this set up? Yeah. I frantically get that all set up. and then we get everybody in bed and I'm laying next to him and I realize that he has a fever and like we're sharing it's lights out.

At this point we're sharing this campsite with like strangers you could only bring one vehicle back to the campsite at a time. So my car is like half [00:08:00] an hour away through the woods in the dark and I barely, like, I have no idea how to get there.

Taylor: I am so stressed listening to you

Rosie: I know

Taylor: story,

Rosie: so I'm like, well, we're gonna have to leave.

But it would feel really weird to like, bring my van in the middle of this campsite while people are like trying to sleep. So I'm like, well, we'll just, he's asleep. My daughter's asleep. I'll just try to get some sleep. I was freezing. He was burn, like burning up next to me. My daughter slept great. I slept for like two hours.

I could hear coyotes, like I was just so cold and so uncomfortable. Like, I don't, I had a tent and I had like an air mattress and I brought some blankets, you know? I was like, oh, it'll be fine. It wasn't fine. It was not fine. Um, so anyway.

Taylor: I don't mean to laugh at yourself, Frank.

Rosie: No, please, please laugh at it. Um, so I sleep from like two 30 to four 30.

I wake up at four 30. I, like, I bundle up and I am literally just standing in [00:09:00] the tent for an hour, waiting for either my son to wake up or for there to be like some light, some sunrise.

So five 30 rolls around. It's still dark, but my son wakes up and he's like, I don't feel good. And I'm like, I know. So we have to walk over to like the med area and get him evaluated and, and okay, yes, he has a fever, so we're leaving just like, because they have to, you know, keep a account of everybody who's there.

and so then, yeah, my daughter wakes up and she's ready for her first full day of like Cub Scout camp. And I'm like,

sorry,

Taylor: worst.

Rosie: we're leaving

Taylor: Oh,

Rosie: She was so mad at me. She was so mad at her brother. So anyway, I have like all. Not, I know pe I people actually suffer from PTSD, so I don't wanna like diminish that at all.

But I feel so stressed going into this camping trip,

Taylor: I can imagine.

Rosie: luckily this time it's just me and her. We're not gonna bring my son. And, um, [00:10:00] my, uh, shout out to my friend Leslie and her husband. Um, they have loaned me like warm sleeping pads and insulated sleeping pads. So I will not be free freezing tonight, hopefully.

And hopefully I will sleep more than two hours. And it's two nights of camping, so it's, it's Friday night and Saturday night. Um, I'm supposed to be like 40 degrees tonight.

Taylor: I am wishing you all the good camping energy.

Rosie: I'm so stressed about this thing. But then there's this other thing happening in the world right now that is so major and so many people are suffering like this. This'll be fine. Like, I'll be fine. Like worst case scenario, I don't sleep or whatever, and we have to leave.

And my daughter has another, you know, horrible camping experience and she can blame me for it, but like, that's the worst, right? Um,

Taylor: Those are the core memories that you carry with you into adulthood.

Rosie: remember when,

Taylor: It's, it's funny because one of my strongest memories of my dad growing up was my, uh, girl Scout camp out. [00:11:00] Where he was, you know, helping, helping out with the big, the group camp out. And he thought it would be a great idea to tell a bunch of seven year old girls

the story of the Hitless horsemen

Rosie: no.

Taylor: in the middle of the woods then, and then proceeded to get up late at night and start making the sound of horse hoves.

Rosie: Oh my God. What a fantastic yet horrible memory.

Taylor: Yes. Well, I mean, it ended in disaster.

Everyone was screaming.

Rosie: oh, no.

Taylor: We all ended up going home

early the next morning. It was, it was a lot of traumatized little girls and, you know, my dad had to live with that, um, that little nugget for the rest of his life.

Rosie: Oh my gosh. . It's like one of those things that you think is gonna be a great idea as a parent, and then you realize actually

Taylor: No.

Rosie: it's not.

Taylor: How do I walk this

back?

Rosie: yeah. Yeah. You can't, you

Taylor: you can't.

Rosie: you just have to like say you're sorry,[00:12:00] . That's, that's what my focus is right now. I've like rolled up our tent. I've like packed away our sleeping bags and stuff, so, um, as soon as she gets home from school, we're gonna leave.

But

Taylor: I have a good feeling. I have a good feeling

for you.

Rosie: be better.

Taylor: And if it's not fine, then you'll have wonderful stories to tell us.

Rosie: remember

next time? Yeah.

Taylor: Mm-Hmm?

Rosie: All right, so we're gonna get into our topic now. Um, October is depression awareness month, which makes sense. Those a lot of people suffer from seasonal, depression. And as we get into the winter months, uh, Taylor, you and I both have personal experience with suicide and with depression.

I wonder, do you wanna talk about your experience first?

Taylor: I was just telling that story about my dad and, I was wondering going into this episode, how I was going to be able to handle this conversation and, [00:13:00] and. Really, if emotionally and mentally I could get through it and, you know, I'm gonna do my best. Um,

my

Rosie: might cry. It's okay,

Taylor: it's okay. I have a feeling that's gonna be kind of a, a running theme in this podcast. Lots of tears from the moms and that's okay.

Rosie: That's okay. We

Taylor: big feelings.

back in May, my father ended his life. It was very unexpected, which I have found out, you know, in the months afterwards that that's not unusual.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: That a lot of times there, there are no major, uh, warning signs or, talk about self-harm.

So it really did come out of nowhere from the outside perspective. And there was also no explanation. I, uh, have come to understand that that is the norm, rather than what you think is that you get this lengthy, you know,

explanation or Note [00:14:00] or Yeah.

Some kind of message as to why the decision was made.

Um, it's more often that there is no explanation because often, um, that decision is made in a, in a really crisis moment.

Um, it's not, it's not often thought out and premeditated.

Rosie: Yes. I think, um, someone, we asked this question in our community about people's experience with depression and suicide and, and someone who also lost her father to suicide. She talked about it, you know, like how people can have a stroke or a heart attack. This is like a brain attack for a lot of people.

And I thought that was, that made it very, like, understandable to me. That felt

like a, a good, uh, verbiage for that. What, what's happening.

Taylor: Yeah. And f you know, for whatever reason that the knowledge that that was, the case for him, that it was, a momentary crisis that he just could not see his way out of that was [00:15:00] somehow easier for me to wrap my head around than, um, than the idea that he was, you know, in this really lengthy and. extended amount of, of personal and mental pain. and everyone's situation is different, but, for my father, it really did seem to be just a, a very difficult moment that he could not see his way out of. I'm, I'm still very much in the early stages

of grief and, you know, when you are grieving someone who has died by suicide, that's a very complicated grief. There are, there are lots of feelings that are, there's a lot of shame around the topic of suicide.

Rosie: Yes.

Taylor: People don't wanna talk about it. I've really tried to be transparent about, you know, what happened to my dad and what I am experiencing as, you know, the daughter of someone who died that [00:16:00] way. It, it's because it is such a, a pervasive issue that is exploding. have to talk about it.

Rosie: Yes. 100%. Yeah, because it used to be. Back in like edu Edwardian or Victorian Times, if you had a family who had died by suicide, like that was a black mark on your entire family. And like, you know, if you're a young woman, you might not be able to get married because there was someone in your family who did that.

Taylor: I.

Rosie: your point, by sweeping it under the rug, by not talking about it, by keeping it quiet, like we can't fix any problems that we don't acknowledge. And so that's why it's important to be open and have, uh, this discourse and like, that's why we decided to do this episode, because we felt like it's something that people need to talk more about.

Taylor: When we asked the, the question in our community, how have you personally been touched by suicide and depression? Just the, [00:17:00] you know, immense response that we received in such a short amount of time tells us that really you, we don't have anyone in our lives who hasn't been touched in some way,

Rosie: Yes, there were so many similar stories, you know, to yours, people who had lost their fathers that way, or people that had struggled themselves with depression or with suicidal ideation. Um, and I wanted to ask, you know, you said that you're still in the early stages of, of grief, but what are some of the things that have helped you move through this process?

Taylor: I started therapy pretty quickly after my, uh, father's death,

Rosie: We love therapy.

Taylor: yeah, I, I really cannot recommend that, highly enough. It's just having someone to talk, you know, through feelings that don't make any sense to you and try to put small, incremental, goals,

I guess,

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: because I think. Grief is just one [00:18:00] of those things that is, we like to think that it has a timetable, that you go through these, these stages of grief and that somehow you're going to get on the other side of it. You get like a little achievement award. I have

Rosie: All right. Done. Check

Taylor: yes, I think we are learning more and more that grief looks different for everyone and that grief is not linear. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes, I go through my day without, experiencing anything and then some days, you know, things wash over me like a tidal wave and I can barely get off the couch and that's. I think just the acknowledgement of where I am from day to day and moment to moment. Um, and I have, as I said, you know, a few moments ago, I've chosen to be really transparent about my grieving process because I want the people in my life who've, shown up for me and showed so much support.

I want them to know how they can support [00:19:00] me. And some days that that means, you know, letting me to myself,

and some days that means wrapping their arms around me. And I, I'm just so very grateful to, um, to have people willing to meet me in the moment that I'm in.

Rosie: I also wanted, wanted to ask if you had like, experienced depression or suicidal ideation or anything like that yourself or, if you have any family members other than than your dad.

Um, who struggled.

Taylor: I am so grateful and lucky that I have never personally struggled with, um, deep depression before. I think for the first time I'm experiencing a, a little taste of what depression looks like in this, this grieving process. I have never experienced suicidal ideation. I do have a family member who's very close to me, is, uh, younger, who has expressed, strong [00:20:00] feelings of anxiety and I think sometimes in young people, anxiety can become so overwhelming

Rosie: Yes,

Taylor: that it leads to things would be easier

if I just weren't here.

Rosie: yes. Sorry. This is ringing so true for me. Yes.

Taylor: So now I'm trying not. When you hear these beautiful little people get so overwhelmed with their feelings that they just want those feelings to end. That's how we know as parents, that we have to have these conversations with our kids. It's hard, it's scary, but their lives literally depend on us having these open, transparent conversations.

Rosie: One, 100%. And teaching, teaching them to how we can move through these feelings. Like we don't have to just hit a wall

and like. . Oh, the only way to end it is this option. No, we [00:21:00] can, it's, it's not gonna be easy, but we continue to work through it and we'll, we will get to the other side. But it's having, trying to teach patients and perseverance and showing up and be, and having support, , all of that resonates, like, so much with me.

 I have lots of experiences with this topic. I lost one, my, my cousin, and one of my best friends, uh, two postpartum depression last year. And she left behind three beautiful girls. She was my husband's cousin and I had grown up, uh, around her, but it wasn't until,

c-O-V-I-D, because she lived on the other side of the country that we connected, um, over Marco Polo and we got really close. And she had suffered from postpartum depression with her after her first child, but not with her second.

, it started occurring after she gave birth to her third child. And, this is the tough thing, [00:22:00] is like she recognized it and she had told me she had made an appointment with her midwife and, um, was getting help.

The weekend before she did it, she had been hospitalized. Because she was, because she couldn't do, you know, she wasn't functional. and

Taylor: there were lots of warning signs.

Rosie: so many warning signs, so many warning signs, and, and this is where it gets really complicated. It's like ultimately, ultimately it was her choice, but it feels hard.

 I physically wasn't there, but it feels hard, you know, you can't, you don't wanna put blame on other, other people, but it feels like things could have been done maybe because, as you were saying before, it can be a very like, spur of the moment, um, thing. And yeah, when she got home, um, she found a firearm, which we need to have a whole conversation about firearms.

But, you know, unfortunately that was not a [00:23:00] safe place for her to be. And she ended her life,

Taylor: I'm so sorry.

Rosie: I think this is what sometimes people don't realize and it's hard to see in the moment when you're feeling this way. but her death was a nuclear bomb in our family.

Taylor: Yeah,

Rosie: And I'm sure it feels that way in your family

Taylor: it does.

Rosie: Um,

Taylor: Completely.

Rosie: it has blown us completely apart.

Taylor: Yeah. The, the, the tidal wave that emanates from suicide is just, it's so far reaching.

Rosie: Yes. I, I don't know what she was, where she was in that moment, , I have my own experience with depression and suicidal ideation. I struggled with it for years in high school and in college. a lot of it stemmed from perfectionism, from comparing myself to other people, but I felt like a burden and, uh.

Being [00:24:00] depressed made me feel even worse about existing, I guess in terms of like, I'm not good enough at X, Y, Z, I don't deserve to be here. And also I'm putting this burden and this strain on other people that I care about so that it's like reinforcing that I shouldn't, should it be here. And I did things like I ripped up all of my sketchbooks.

I wrote horrible things about myself, all over the walls of my room and my ceiling my parents' bathroom door is broken because my dad broke down the door because he was worried that I was like attempting

and I made plans multiple times to end my own life. Mostly thinking about how I could do it so it didn't look like suicide, and my husband, uh, who at the time was my boyfriend, was there for me the whole way through as were my parents. Um, and, and this is a thing with, with depression, before we jump into that, I just wanna establish that like, sometimes people commit suicide and they, they are not depressed beforehand.[00:25:00]

You know, it can be other factors that lead, lead to that. Um, but we don't treat depression as a deadly disease. And it is,

and it should be treated like cancer. Where, what are the different ways that we're attacking this? Are we using medication? Are we using therapy? Are we having, uh, support groups or support networks?

 Are we having friends check in? Um, we don't treat it that way. I'm very fortunate. I'm still here and I'm so happy to be here. Um, I think most people that like encounter me would think of, you know, say I'm a very optimistic, like, happy, cheerful person. Not realizing this part of my life that I, that I went through.

Taylor: That's a huge, I think, testament and array of hope to, to a anyone who might be ex experiencing those, you know, those dark, moments right now and, and those types of ideations. It's also a ray of hope to parents [00:26:00] and caregivers who might be seeing some of these warning signs in their kids that, it is possible not only to survive, to get on the other side of that stage of that dark period, but also to, to thrive and to be a happy and healthy and wonderful mother that you are.

Rosie: It feels cliche, but like it does get better and everything changes and everything is temporary.

but when you're in that moment, it feels inescapable.

It feels like it will never get better. And I'm so grateful that I had people in my life to show up for me, and my mom was amazing.

I feel just thinking about like what she must have been feeling in that moment. It's really hard for me 'cause I know like she wasn't sleeping and she was so stressed and worried about me, but she took me to therapy and she got me different, you know, I tried a variety of [00:27:00] medication, all but she was there every step of the way and, um, as was my dad and as was my husband. I'm just really grateful that I had that. Um, 'cause not everybody does unfortunately. My own daughter is, uh, neurodivergent and so from an early age, I recognized some of those signs.

at age five she said that she wish she didn't exist. and so. I'm like, we are going to attack this from the get-go.

 I started therapy when I was in fourth grade. I remember like crying under, uh, a chair telling my mom that I was gonna kill myself because I couldn't, I wasn't good at like math or something like, like that.

Um, and so I recognize some of that stuff in my daughter. So we started therapy, we've started medication, we do occupational therapy. We have different, uh, like coping mechanisms at home. And I wanna arm her with as many tools as possible and as much support as possible [00:28:00] because I know like puberty is coming,

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: I, you know, kids' brains, they're like literally, I mean, not literally, but like

You know, kids, brain bodies are changing at the time. Their minds are changing even more. Yes. . And so I, I want to have our toolbox ready to go.

So that we don't get to the point that I was, I was at.

Taylor: I think that's, that's so incredible that, in our generation that you had such supportive parents. Because I feel like that is often not the case. There was this really kind of Pervasive stigma to mental health care and there still is

to, to a large extent.

Rosie: Especially among men and boys.

Taylor: , my partner describes, experiencing intense anxiety as a kid and years of insomnia[00:29:00] and just kind of crippling and debilitating anxiety, also tied to perfectionism. and then, and just white knuckling it,

Rosie: Mm-Hmm? .

Taylor: you know, through childhood.

Rosie: it out.

Taylor: And that has really led to some significant challenges in adulthood because those things don't just go away magically on their own.

I mean, may, maybe they do, but more than likely the emotional, you know, challenges that you discover in childhood will, if ignored, follow you into adulthood. And sometimes

morph into very destructive, you know, behavior.

Rosie: yes. At some point you're gonna have to handle your shit.

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: Which is, which is the hard thing Al also about depression is like you can offer someone as much support and you can sit in the darkness with them. But you cannot solve the problem for them. That is something that they need to work through on their own.

And with professional help. As much as we want an easy, quick fix for these things, especially as mothers,

Taylor: Mm-Hmm. [00:30:00]

Rosie: um, there's just not, and it's a long, ongoing process. And you have to have a lot of patience,

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: um, for, for seeing that through, I think to the other side.

Taylor: I can't, I can't agree more. And I think maybe we can spend, you know, just a little time talking about as parents, , what we're looking at and just how important it is to have these conversations with our kids. Because we know at this point, statistically that suicide is the number two leading cause of death in, uh, youth age, 10 to 24, 14 years old specifically is the most at risk and dangerous age

for boys.

Rosie: Wow.

Taylor: we don't, again, we don't have to be experts on why this is happening. It's a, More than likely a myriad of different stressors and, and environmental, issues that are, you know, causing a, an emotional crisis amongst our youth. , but what we do need to do [00:31:00] is have the tools and the skills to address the crisis that we're facing. , we can spend time to talk about the hows and whys later. I think it's really important that we just deal with what's at hand and, and make sure that our kids are safe and they feel supported by us.

Rosie: And when we think about kids, you know, also acknowledging our L-G-B-Q-T kids. I was going through this report, from the CDC about, suicide and it was talking about a study on, uh, middle and secondary school age kids.

 It found that the presence of a gay straight Alliance club on the school's campus lessened, uh, connections between gay bias victimization and suicide attempts through reductions in hopelessness. Going through this report that there's lots of other statistics on, you know, PTSD for veterans, and, and shows the existence of all of these different programs that [00:32:00] are

actually making strides and, and making differences and saving people's lives. Our kids are especially, you know, in middle and high school just at such a high risk for this. And thinking about like, what tools can our schools implement what programs can we take our kids to?

What, what support groups are there. Um, it's really important to advocate for those. I know even in our own school district, um, they recently added, social emotional learning coaches, which like is another thing that's cited in this report as, having evidence to, you know, reduce depression and reduce suicide rates among youth.

Taylor: Yeah. It's so critically important that we have emotional support in our schools. 'cause our kids spend so many hours a day there. That's why I get really frustrated when I hear this narrative coming, um, from the other side saying that we just need to get to the basics. Schools are only [00:33:00] there to teach arithmetic and reading.

Rosie: Yeah. Yeah. They're there for seven or eight hours a day, but they're, yeah.

Taylor: yeah. The idea that, yeah, that we, we cannot, address and see to kids' emotional wellbeing while they're in schools is just that's so dangerous and can be so destructive. So I appreciate our school district's commitment to, to making sure our kids have the emotional support that they need while they're in school.

And I will just say personally, you know, having, a child who's had some emotional challenges and, dealing with anxiety, knowing that I can in partner with the guidance counselor and the student support coach, I can be completely, you know, transparent about what's going on with him. I feel that my kid is so much safer at school because he has a safe place to go and talk about, you know, things that are going on that I may not be privy to.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: it's, it's supposed to be a village, it's supposed to be a partnership[00:34:00] , Rosie, to, to your point, our L-G-B-Q-T youth are, are even at higher risk.

that is why it is so critically important that they have, uh, the support and a feeling of belonging in their social environments, in their school environments.

Because they may, let's be honest, they may not have it at home we know that having just, just one affirming voice really lessens the rate of suicide risk for an L-G-B-Q-T youth. I think that statistic comes from the Trevor Project, and imagine to me that's a pretty low bar, one affirming voice.

Like what if we have a whole, community and friend circle and educator circle, voices of of support and affirmation. Isn't that what every kid deserves?

Rosie: 100%. And I feel like if you see that in your school, even if you are a cis head student. , that's showing that there's empathy in the school, that people will show up and, [00:35:00] and support you no matter what direction you head. Homelessness, um, is another like point of intersection where people who are experiencing homelessness are also at a higher rate.

Um, and often L-G-B-Q-T youth are not supported at home and find themselves, um, homeless. This particularly, um, affects like black transgender and non-binary youth. Um, they're at a disproportionate rate, um, of suicide risk. this one statistic said 59% of them were seriously considering suicide and more than one in four, attempted suicide in the past year.

So that's why it's so important as . Parents as caregivers to show up and be supportive of our kids and be a space for them, be a shelter for them because we we don't always know all the facets of what's going on in their [00:36:00] life.

Taylor: I could not agree more, you know, within your, within your own home and your own family, it's important that you. Number one, understand. And this, I'll be honest, this took me a long time to wrap my head around. I was so afraid to bring up, suicide with my kids. 'cause I had this notion that that would plant the idea

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: head. And at this point, mounds of research and the pediatric, community, the psychology community all agree that bringing, talking with your kids about suicide will not make them consider suicide. It's far more dangerous, uh, not to bring the topic up with your kids.

Rosie: Right, because they feel like, oh, if you know my mom or dad or caregiver or whoever, if they're talking about it openly with me, I know that when I feel, unsafe

if I, if I feel like I'm considering it, [00:37:00] then um, I know I can go to them. Um, because we've already talked about it. I mean, it's the same thing with

You know, sex ed, it's like the, again, the, the other side is like, oh, we just need to like, not talk about it. And like, that's how people get pregnant and they don't know like what they're doing, doing,

Taylor: Knowledge is power. y'all.

Rosie: is power. Yeah. And arming our kids with that knowledge because they know themselves best.

Ultimately it's up to the individual to seek, help to seek out resources. So knowing that your kid, or a kid that you care about can come to you when they need help is like huge.

Taylor: If you have a thought or a feeling in your mind that there is a potential risk there, um, you need to listen to that,

that thought and feeling. Things that you can look for are, you know, your kids expressing worthlessness or hopelessness failure being worried, anxiety. [00:38:00] if you notice that they begin acting recklessly or aggressively, which is out of character for them.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: Any changes oh, for older kids drinking

or

Rosie: Oh yeah. Substance abuse and depression go very hand in hand.

Taylor: If you start to notice self-injury, or, searching online for things, uh, surrounding self-harm. Certainly you need to take any threats seriously. Even if you think it sounds like a joke, um, joking about suicide should be taken very seriously. And also just be aware of situations that are stressors. So if something is happening at school that's causing a large amount of stress or anxiety you know, if bullying or humiliation or anything like that involving peers, puts kids at at high risk. And, once you kind of go through those and if you, if you make the assessment that several [00:39:00] of those The several of those box are checked, then you need to make an action plan and you can sort of determine whether or not it's a, it's a wait and see situation or it's an urgent situation, but even if it's a wait and see, it's important that you're having open and honest conversations and that you are consulting a medical professional.

Rosie: . The earlier the intervention, the better. we wanna prevent getting to that point as much as possible.

And I think there are a lot of barriers. you know, my, my own experience, my, my parents would talk about, oh, well we, you know, we can only do so many therapy sessions this year because dad's insurance only covers so much or

whatever. there are therapy, psychiatric, uh, offices in your area, therapists that will work on a sliding scale.

So if you are open about your financial situation, you know, people wanna help . That's, that's like, that's their job. That's why they're, they're doing it.

Taylor: [00:40:00] And that's also again, why it's so important to have that support structure in our schools as well.

Rosie: Oh, yes. 'cause that's a free resource,

Taylor: if kids are not able to access outside therapy, um, then there has to be that emotional support in, in the schools.

Rosie: Even if it's, uh, something that's , in the moment and that like never happens again and they need therapy for three months or whatever to like, work through the anxiety or depression or whatever it is that they're feeling, like those tools will stay with them for the rest of their lives and

make, make mountains, uh, much more easy to climb or make them much smaller.

You know, they'll know how to handle these feelings and these situations in the future. And that's what I'm really trying to, do with my daughter. I think the, the biggest thing too, um, especially with kids, you know, teens and tweens who are going through puberty or people who are depressed, is there is an inclination from that person will like, will pull away, [00:41:00] will pull back.

And we're, you know, we're very much in a society where it's like, oh, like I don't wanna say the wrong thing, or I don't wanna overstep, or I don't wanna be too obtrusive or obno obnoxious. And this is a situation where you do need to be obtrusive. You do need to be obnoxious. And if someone is in a crisis , where they're having suicidal ideation, like you need to follow them from room to room, you need to put away things that they could harm themselves with,

Put away firearms, even things like, if you're seeing a doctor or a psychiatrist talking about, you need to give me a dose to deal with this, but not a lethal dose,

Taylor: 100%. Making your home safe is one of the the best things that you can do. just in general.

Rosie: in general.

Taylor: When you have kids in the house, uh, firearms, medication, any sort of weaponry, um, it's important that you make [00:42:00] your home as safe as possible. To your earlier point, Rosie, it is very important that we are not vague or hyperbolic in these conversations with our kids.

We need to be very specific. You need to ask direct questions.

Rosie: Yes. And direct questions often be annoying , because the worst thing is like, I'm fine mom, you're, you're annoying me. I'm okay.

Taylor: Yeah. Mental and emotional checks need to happen frequently and specifically. You know, a lot of kids your age experience suicidal ideation. Have you ever had thoughts like this, like your, your questions need to be that specific and you need to listen to the answers.

Rosie: . So important to, yeah. As we were saying to, to be open about this because it just creates a, a through way for conversation to happen. Maybe there's not a conversation right now, but maybe there will be down the line.[00:43:00]

Taylor: I think it's important also to remember and recognize how your emotional wellbeing and, and your mental, temperature is, you know, do mental check-ins and emotional check-ins for yourself.

Rosie: Yes. Guess so. Frequently as caregivers, we. We put our own feelings, on the back burner and sometimes, like, just staying busy is how we ignore it. And then if suddenly we're not busy, it's like a flood of

Taylor: Yeah. It all comes out at

Rosie: it all comes out at once and one of the things that's been awesome for me, going through this with my daughter is I have tools now I have a better understanding.

 Even like looking back, like I see so much of the way that she reacts to things, like, oh, that's me. That's what I would do.

Taylor: You recognize that?

Rosie: I recognize that. And so I have those tools for my, myself now. And I, having [00:44:00] gone through it and having lived it, I feel so much more prepared, to help her going forward so that she doesn't get to a crisis point like where I was.

If you're trying to be a support person for someone who is suicidal or, dealing, dealing with depression,

you can feel very frustrated I think, um, because it is such a long process. Um, but I'm also like very. Grateful. My husband is the most patient person in the world, and I asked him this morning, I'd never asked him this before. I was like, what was that experience like for you? Like, I don't even know. Like I was just going through it.

And he said he felt scared sometimes for me, and it was hard, but he just tried to be as supportive as possible and it made, it made a difference.

Taylor: There's no way to put any sort of, um, quantifying a support structure is everything. And that's why we need to, do [00:45:00] everything in our power to make sure our kids feel supported and loved and valued. And every single one of our kids deserve that. And if they are not getting that at home, then the community has to really step up.

Rosie: Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Taylor: I know we are going to provide a list of resources

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: attached to this podcast on different books that you can read and, and perhaps in different podcasts and conversations you can check out around this. We hope that our conversation has encouraged you as a caregiver to have these conversations with your kids, and we'd like to know how it goes. 'cause it, the thing is like, you don't have to be perfect. The, these conversations don't have to, you know, follow any kind of formula. They can be awkward and hard and weird, and that's okay.

Rosie: Yes, I think there's a concern that like, oh, if I say the one wrong thing, that might be the one wrong thing that like tips the scale, but talking about it is definitely the way to go.

Taylor: Rosie, I [00:46:00] appreciate, you know, you trusting me and our audience with this deeply personal story. I really appreciate the space to be able to share my personal story.

Rosie: Yes.

And we know so many people in our community also, this will resonate with them whether they've lost someone or have helped someone or are dealing with it themselves. , there's so many great resources. Um, there's also the suicide hotline, which is. it's 9 8, 8, um, now it's just like, kind of like 9 1 1, whereas before it was a long, uh, number and I've, I've called the suicide hotline before, not for myself, but, um, for a very, very close family member. And, you can do that also, if another family member is in a moment of crisis, you can call and they will provide you with resources in your area, for either yourself or the person that you care about.

But thank you Taylor for this, this conver this [00:47:00] tough conversation. Um, but important conversation.

Taylor: Thank you, Rosie. I'm glad. I'm just so grateful for our community and each other.

Rosie: Yes.

Taylor: Keep showing up for each other.

Rosie: Keep showing up for your community and the people and show up for yourself too.

You gotta show up for yourself. All right, friends.

Taylor: we're signing off on this really tough, tough talk.

Rosie: Take care of yourselves and, uh, take care of each other.

Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope we have encouraged you to be open with your own kids, friends, and family about depression and suicide. We hope that it inspires you to discover what resources are available to you, and investigate what supports your local government offers, and to ask for better supports if you find them to be lacking.

It's so important that we take the time to understand one another and to advocate for each other. Again, you can [00:48:00] find more resources in the episode notes.